OMFG Part 2: The logs of fail.
Jan. 12th, 2009 02:30 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
jadedmusingsRemora, check out what you missed! Elisha, nope, this wasn't about goats. :(
I've already stated that if people who are not devs/GMs are not reigned in, I will walk. I won't take this bullshit happening everytime someone has a minor nitpick over language. Really, this was fucking ridiculous. Yes, I'm annoyed.
[13:52:57] <Falar> Hey, Morgan! Does Animal Companion need both Sentience and Skilled/Highly Skilled in a language to talk or just Sentience?!?!?!?! It's the question of the hour!
[13:54:01] <Aerdan> He's not a GM.
[13:54:32] <JadeNSC> Just Sentient, Falar.
[13:54:54] <Falar> I'm just polling until I get a GM answer. :P
[13:55:01] * JadeNSC is not a GM, but it doesn't make sense.
[13:55:24] <Morgan> Falar: I have no clue, sorry. I'd presume just sentience. And I'm not a GM.
[13:55:34] <Falar> See, seeing as Sentient only says "capable", it doesn't make sense that it grants the ability as well.
[13:55:39] <Falar> To me.
[13:56:27] <Morgan> Ah yes, but that'd make sentience a worthless ability.
[13:57:19] <Morgan> Given that to understand a language, you need the skill. >_>
[13:58:28] <Falar> If Sentient granted "Common: 40" then it'd be perfectly clear to me.
[13:58:32] * Falar shrugs.
[13:58:36] <Morgan> (If it helps, imagine Sentient gives the 50 base common everyone has. >_>)
[13:58:46] <Falar> Which I can see, but it doesn't say that.
[13:59:09] <Falar> It only says "capable". Just because I'm capable of learning French, it doesn't mean I have the ability to speak it with no training.
[13:59:10] <Falar> (To me)
[13:59:28] <Lafing_Cat> to me, there's still benefits of having a sentient companion that you can't speak to
[13:59:35] <Morgan> yet all animal companions are *capable* of learning common.
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> Sentient (2): The Animal Companion has intelligence comparable to
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> a human's, and is capable of speaking and understanding Common
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> Tongue.
[13:59:38] <Falar> Besides, I'd only learn French in the bed of a native speaker.
[13:59:40] <|Omicron|> You could compromise and give him the basic 20% that any skill must have.
[13:59:48] <Falar> ;p
[13:59:51] <JadeNSC> "Capable of speaking and understanding the Common tongue."
[13:59:51] <Morgan> Nothing in Highly skilled says you can't take a language.
[13:59:55] <JadeNSC> Right from the PDF.
[14:00:04] <Falar> Capable doesn't imply that they know how to though.
[14:00:05] <Morgan> Unless languages have shifted from scholastic to technical. >_>
[14:00:14] <JadeNSC> ...
[14:00:18] <JadeNSC> Capable = able
[14:00:26] <Falar> I'm capable of speaking french.
[14:00:34] <Morgan> So... You're saying Sentient is worthless?
[14:00:34] <Falar> I have all the brains and muscles and all.
[14:00:42] <Falar> I have no training in knowing french, so I can't speak it.
[14:00:58] <Morgan> Also, you're not capable of speaking french.
[14:01:05] <Morgan> You're capable of *LEARNING* to speak french.
[14:01:13] <Morgan> You lack the ability to, so you are incapable.
[14:01:26] <Lafing_Cat> the first definition applicable to the conversation for capable is "3: having attributes (as physical or mental power) required for performance or accomplishment"
[14:02:02] <Lafing_Cat> they have the attributes required for speech, but maybe not the ability to currently speak it, is a perfectly valid interpretation (regardless of whether it's right or not)
[14:02:21] <Morgan> Seriously Jim. The GM says it's longer than a day, take the damn reroll.
[14:02:31] <Falar> I think most people are going to 6, LC.
[14:02:43] <Falar> "6: having or showing general efficiency and ability"
[14:02:51] <Lafing_Cat> not grammatically justifed by context if you ask me.
[14:02:52] <JadeNSC> omfg
[14:03:00] <Lafing_Cat> but I'm not saying it's wrong.
[14:03:12] <Lafing_Cat> I just think a GM should rule on it, because its not clear.
[14:03:35] <JadeNSC> ...
[14:03:37] <Gullwhacker> Skilled is 5 AC points, gives 50 skill points.
[14:03:41] <JadeNSC> A GM has ruled on it.
[14:03:42] <Gullwhacker> Sentient is 2 AC points.
[14:03:58] <Morgan> Okay, to be completely blunt. Either sentience *grants* the ability, or Sentience is worthless, since Skilled can grant Language: Common.
[14:03:59] <Lafing_Cat> well, technically either the head GM or 50% of the other GMs should rule on it.
[14:04:11] * JadeNSC just facepalms.
[14:04:24] <Lafing_Cat> Morg: not really, because language: Common without sentience would end you up as a parrot.
[14:04:25] <Gullwhacker> No, Morgan.
[14:04:28] <JadeNSC> You people will pick apart *anything.*
[14:04:40] <Morgan> Jade: just cat. >_>
[14:04:41] <Gullwhacker> I can give you an AC with Language: Common but no Sentience.
[14:04:43] <Gullwhacker> A PARROT.
[14:04:49] <|Omicron|> XD
[14:04:49] <Lafing_Cat> Morg: I'm not even the one who brought it up.
[14:04:52] <JadeNSC> Falar too. :P
[14:04:58] <Falar> <.< >.> I think I need to remove myself from the situation 'cause it's going way too drama-y.
[14:04:59] <JadeNSC> I"m shocked Aerdan didn't get all up in it.
[14:05:05] * |Omicron| awards Gullwhacker a brownie point.
[14:05:06] <Morgan> Gull: Ah yes, but that's yourself limiting you.
[14:05:15] <Lafing_Cat> No it isn't.
[14:05:32] <Falar> I got cussed at like twice over a minor thing.
[14:05:33] <Lafing_Cat> or as another example, a computer with a microphone, speech synthesis software, and voice recognition
[14:05:36] <Falar> It's too drama-y for me.
[14:05:40] <JadeNSC> I wasn't cussing at you.
[14:05:46] <Lafing_Cat> not sentient, but can speak and be spoken too.
[14:05:57] <Aerdan> JadeNSC: 1. Serenity. 2. This argument is retarded.
[14:06:23] <JadeNSC> Ah, Serenity is a good excuse.
[14:06:25] <Lafing_Cat> And if sentient automatically comes with speech, there should really be a cheaper version that doesn't.
[14:06:53] <JadeNSC> But Cat: Most domesticated animals understand basic commands. My dog can't speak, but she knows "Down, sit," etc.
[14:06:57] <Gullwhacker> Indeed. Key word in 'Animal Companion' - ANIMAL.
[14:07:02] <Lafing_Cat> your cat doesn't understand it
[14:07:11] <Lafing_Cat> your cat has been *conditioned* to respond to certain triggers
[14:07:11] <JadeNSC> I believe she does. She chooses to ignore it.
[14:07:14] <Lafing_Cat> or your dog does
[14:07:15] <Lafing_Cat> whatever
[14:07:16] <|Omicron|> Well. If Skilled grants 50 freely distributable points for 5 points, I don't see why sentience shouldn't grant 20 points in one specific skill for 2 points.
[14:07:31] <JadeNSC> The cats totally understand me. I also understand they're plotting my demise.
[14:07:40] <Lafing_Cat> because sentience isn't about skills, it's about *intellectual capacity*
[14:07:43] <Morgan> Cat: Sentience is missnamed, it doesn't have anything to do with feeling or self-awareness.
[14:07:46] <Gullwhacker> Senses is 3 points, giving Awareness 50, further clouding the issue.
[14:08:02] <JadeNSC> ..what is clouded?
[14:08:24] <|Omicron|> the issue.
[14:08:31] <Lafing_Cat> A sentient animal companion is presumably capable of reasoning, which is what you're paying points for.
[14:08:47] <Lafing_Cat> the ability to comprehend non-concrete issues.
[14:08:49] <JadeNSC> Yeah, speaking and understanding *one* language.
[14:08:50] <Morgan> Nothing in it describes the reasoning as something gained!
[14:09:01] <Lafing_Cat> The *name* does :P
[14:09:14] <Gullwhacker> And the intelligence bit does.
[14:09:31] <Lafing_Cat> and that, yes.
[14:09:41] <Gullwhacker> But we should probably find the AC devs to clarify.
[14:09:47] <Morgan> Cat: Hey, you've got the intelligence, but are clearly unable to reason.
[14:09:49] <JadeNSC> D:
[14:09:52] * Morgan uses his evil dev power.
[14:09:52] <JadeNSC> We *have*.
[14:10:06] <Morgan> http://www.returnergames.com/ord/index.php/Advantages Until I get higher wording telling me I'm wrong. BAM.
[14:10:16] <Lafing_Cat> you are *a* dev, the whole reason there's a head dev is to stop one of them from making a bad decision that affects the entire game :P
[14:10:21] <Gullwhacker> Oh, yay! We've got Ad Hominem attacks thrown in!
[14:10:48] <Gullwhacker> Those make everything better!
[14:10:58] <Morgan> Gull: eh, we've stated our points, we've got nothing else to do except restate them.
[14:11:20] * JadeNSC just bites her tongue.
[14:11:40] <Lafing_Cat> Personally, I'd make sentient + language 3 points and sentient + mute or animal sounds only 2 points.
[14:11:47] * Morgan chuckles. But yeah, If someone higher than me explains why I'm wrong, then I'll edit it to be clear the other way. Until then, I gotta go pick up my lil sis.
[14:11:52] * Falar laughs evilly at derailing the channel with a minor rules question for twenty minutes.
[14:12:01] <Lafing_Cat> sort of split the difference between "buy a whole 'noter skill" and "it's free, you'd have to be dumb not to take it!"
[14:12:04] <Gullwhacker> Derailing? Falar, Falar, Falar.
[14:12:06] <Lafing_Cat> *nother.
[14:12:20] <Gullwhacker> You imply that this channel had rails in the first place.
[14:12:30] <|Omicron|> Has anyone asked a GM yet if any of the optional racial distinction rules apply, such as the differentiated senses at the end of chapter 3? I'd want to add a note to my sheet if that was the case.
[14:12:31] <Lafing_Cat> Because I *like* the idea of intelligent but mute animal companions, and I don't want making one to be a foolish choice.
So on the wiki, the Sentient ability for the Animal Companion now reads: "The Animal Companion has intelligence comparable to a humans, and has the ability and knowledge allowing it to speak and understand Common Tongue, thus granting it the Language: Common Tongue skill at 50%."
...yeah. EPIC FAIL.
I've already stated that if people who are not devs/GMs are not reigned in, I will walk. I won't take this bullshit happening everytime someone has a minor nitpick over language. Really, this was fucking ridiculous. Yes, I'm annoyed.
[13:52:57] <Falar> Hey, Morgan! Does Animal Companion need both Sentience and Skilled/Highly Skilled in a language to talk or just Sentience?!?!?!?! It's the question of the hour!
[13:54:01] <Aerdan> He's not a GM.
[13:54:32] <JadeNSC> Just Sentient, Falar.
[13:54:54] <Falar> I'm just polling until I get a GM answer. :P
[13:55:01] * JadeNSC is not a GM, but it doesn't make sense.
[13:55:24] <Morgan> Falar: I have no clue, sorry. I'd presume just sentience. And I'm not a GM.
[13:55:34] <Falar> See, seeing as Sentient only says "capable", it doesn't make sense that it grants the ability as well.
[13:55:39] <Falar> To me.
[13:56:27] <Morgan> Ah yes, but that'd make sentience a worthless ability.
[13:57:19] <Morgan> Given that to understand a language, you need the skill. >_>
[13:58:28] <Falar> If Sentient granted "Common: 40" then it'd be perfectly clear to me.
[13:58:32] * Falar shrugs.
[13:58:36] <Morgan> (If it helps, imagine Sentient gives the 50 base common everyone has. >_>)
[13:58:46] <Falar> Which I can see, but it doesn't say that.
[13:59:09] <Falar> It only says "capable". Just because I'm capable of learning French, it doesn't mean I have the ability to speak it with no training.
[13:59:10] <Falar> (To me)
[13:59:28] <Lafing_Cat> to me, there's still benefits of having a sentient companion that you can't speak to
[13:59:35] <Morgan> yet all animal companions are *capable* of learning common.
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> Sentient (2): The Animal Companion has intelligence comparable to
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> a human's, and is capable of speaking and understanding Common
[13:59:36] <JadeNSC> Tongue.
[13:59:38] <Falar> Besides, I'd only learn French in the bed of a native speaker.
[13:59:40] <|Omicron|> You could compromise and give him the basic 20% that any skill must have.
[13:59:48] <Falar> ;p
[13:59:51] <JadeNSC> "Capable of speaking and understanding the Common tongue."
[13:59:51] <Morgan> Nothing in Highly skilled says you can't take a language.
[13:59:55] <JadeNSC> Right from the PDF.
[14:00:04] <Falar> Capable doesn't imply that they know how to though.
[14:00:05] <Morgan> Unless languages have shifted from scholastic to technical. >_>
[14:00:14] <JadeNSC> ...
[14:00:18] <JadeNSC> Capable = able
[14:00:26] <Falar> I'm capable of speaking french.
[14:00:34] <Morgan> So... You're saying Sentient is worthless?
[14:00:34] <Falar> I have all the brains and muscles and all.
[14:00:42] <Falar> I have no training in knowing french, so I can't speak it.
[14:00:58] <Morgan> Also, you're not capable of speaking french.
[14:01:05] <Morgan> You're capable of *LEARNING* to speak french.
[14:01:13] <Morgan> You lack the ability to, so you are incapable.
[14:01:26] <Lafing_Cat> the first definition applicable to the conversation for capable is "3: having attributes (as physical or mental power) required for performance or accomplishment"
[14:02:02] <Lafing_Cat> they have the attributes required for speech, but maybe not the ability to currently speak it, is a perfectly valid interpretation (regardless of whether it's right or not)
[14:02:21] <Morgan> Seriously Jim. The GM says it's longer than a day, take the damn reroll.
[14:02:31] <Falar> I think most people are going to 6, LC.
[14:02:43] <Falar> "6: having or showing general efficiency and ability"
[14:02:51] <Lafing_Cat> not grammatically justifed by context if you ask me.
[14:02:52] <JadeNSC> omfg
[14:03:00] <Lafing_Cat> but I'm not saying it's wrong.
[14:03:12] <Lafing_Cat> I just think a GM should rule on it, because its not clear.
[14:03:35] <JadeNSC> ...
[14:03:37] <Gullwhacker> Skilled is 5 AC points, gives 50 skill points.
[14:03:41] <JadeNSC> A GM has ruled on it.
[14:03:42] <Gullwhacker> Sentient is 2 AC points.
[14:03:58] <Morgan> Okay, to be completely blunt. Either sentience *grants* the ability, or Sentience is worthless, since Skilled can grant Language: Common.
[14:03:59] <Lafing_Cat> well, technically either the head GM or 50% of the other GMs should rule on it.
[14:04:11] * JadeNSC just facepalms.
[14:04:24] <Lafing_Cat> Morg: not really, because language: Common without sentience would end you up as a parrot.
[14:04:25] <Gullwhacker> No, Morgan.
[14:04:28] <JadeNSC> You people will pick apart *anything.*
[14:04:40] <Morgan> Jade: just cat. >_>
[14:04:41] <Gullwhacker> I can give you an AC with Language: Common but no Sentience.
[14:04:43] <Gullwhacker> A PARROT.
[14:04:49] <|Omicron|> XD
[14:04:49] <Lafing_Cat> Morg: I'm not even the one who brought it up.
[14:04:52] <JadeNSC> Falar too. :P
[14:04:58] <Falar> <.< >.> I think I need to remove myself from the situation 'cause it's going way too drama-y.
[14:04:59] <JadeNSC> I"m shocked Aerdan didn't get all up in it.
[14:05:05] * |Omicron| awards Gullwhacker a brownie point.
[14:05:06] <Morgan> Gull: Ah yes, but that's yourself limiting you.
[14:05:15] <Lafing_Cat> No it isn't.
[14:05:32] <Falar> I got cussed at like twice over a minor thing.
[14:05:33] <Lafing_Cat> or as another example, a computer with a microphone, speech synthesis software, and voice recognition
[14:05:36] <Falar> It's too drama-y for me.
[14:05:40] <JadeNSC> I wasn't cussing at you.
[14:05:46] <Lafing_Cat> not sentient, but can speak and be spoken too.
[14:05:57] <Aerdan> JadeNSC: 1. Serenity. 2. This argument is retarded.
[14:06:23] <JadeNSC> Ah, Serenity is a good excuse.
[14:06:25] <Lafing_Cat> And if sentient automatically comes with speech, there should really be a cheaper version that doesn't.
[14:06:53] <JadeNSC> But Cat: Most domesticated animals understand basic commands. My dog can't speak, but she knows "Down, sit," etc.
[14:06:57] <Gullwhacker> Indeed. Key word in 'Animal Companion' - ANIMAL.
[14:07:02] <Lafing_Cat> your cat doesn't understand it
[14:07:11] <Lafing_Cat> your cat has been *conditioned* to respond to certain triggers
[14:07:11] <JadeNSC> I believe she does. She chooses to ignore it.
[14:07:14] <Lafing_Cat> or your dog does
[14:07:15] <Lafing_Cat> whatever
[14:07:16] <|Omicron|> Well. If Skilled grants 50 freely distributable points for 5 points, I don't see why sentience shouldn't grant 20 points in one specific skill for 2 points.
[14:07:31] <JadeNSC> The cats totally understand me. I also understand they're plotting my demise.
[14:07:40] <Lafing_Cat> because sentience isn't about skills, it's about *intellectual capacity*
[14:07:43] <Morgan> Cat: Sentience is missnamed, it doesn't have anything to do with feeling or self-awareness.
[14:07:46] <Gullwhacker> Senses is 3 points, giving Awareness 50, further clouding the issue.
[14:08:02] <JadeNSC> ..what is clouded?
[14:08:24] <|Omicron|> the issue.
[14:08:31] <Lafing_Cat> A sentient animal companion is presumably capable of reasoning, which is what you're paying points for.
[14:08:47] <Lafing_Cat> the ability to comprehend non-concrete issues.
[14:08:49] <JadeNSC> Yeah, speaking and understanding *one* language.
[14:08:50] <Morgan> Nothing in it describes the reasoning as something gained!
[14:09:01] <Lafing_Cat> The *name* does :P
[14:09:14] <Gullwhacker> And the intelligence bit does.
[14:09:31] <Lafing_Cat> and that, yes.
[14:09:41] <Gullwhacker> But we should probably find the AC devs to clarify.
[14:09:47] <Morgan> Cat: Hey, you've got the intelligence, but are clearly unable to reason.
[14:09:49] <JadeNSC> D:
[14:09:52] * Morgan uses his evil dev power.
[14:09:52] <JadeNSC> We *have*.
[14:10:06] <Morgan> http://www.returnergames.com/ord/index.php/Advantages Until I get higher wording telling me I'm wrong. BAM.
[14:10:16] <Lafing_Cat> you are *a* dev, the whole reason there's a head dev is to stop one of them from making a bad decision that affects the entire game :P
[14:10:21] <Gullwhacker> Oh, yay! We've got Ad Hominem attacks thrown in!
[14:10:48] <Gullwhacker> Those make everything better!
[14:10:58] <Morgan> Gull: eh, we've stated our points, we've got nothing else to do except restate them.
[14:11:20] * JadeNSC just bites her tongue.
[14:11:40] <Lafing_Cat> Personally, I'd make sentient + language 3 points and sentient + mute or animal sounds only 2 points.
[14:11:47] * Morgan chuckles. But yeah, If someone higher than me explains why I'm wrong, then I'll edit it to be clear the other way. Until then, I gotta go pick up my lil sis.
[14:11:52] * Falar laughs evilly at derailing the channel with a minor rules question for twenty minutes.
[14:12:01] <Lafing_Cat> sort of split the difference between "buy a whole 'noter skill" and "it's free, you'd have to be dumb not to take it!"
[14:12:04] <Gullwhacker> Derailing? Falar, Falar, Falar.
[14:12:06] <Lafing_Cat> *nother.
[14:12:20] <Gullwhacker> You imply that this channel had rails in the first place.
[14:12:30] <|Omicron|> Has anyone asked a GM yet if any of the optional racial distinction rules apply, such as the differentiated senses at the end of chapter 3? I'd want to add a note to my sheet if that was the case.
[14:12:31] <Lafing_Cat> Because I *like* the idea of intelligent but mute animal companions, and I don't want making one to be a foolish choice.
So on the wiki, the Sentient ability for the Animal Companion now reads: "The Animal Companion has intelligence comparable to a humans, and has the ability and knowledge allowing it to speak and understand Common Tongue, thus granting it the Language: Common Tongue skill at 50%."
...yeah. EPIC FAIL.
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Date: 2009-01-12 10:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-12 10:46 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-12 10:40 pm (UTC)Ignore LC, and kick Aerdan in the goddamn head until he behaves. Seriously, you'll be happier
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Date: 2009-01-12 10:51 pm (UTC)